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I have found this rose to sucker aggressively, even though it is growing in rather dense shade for a rose. This year it also is showing some yellowing foliage and some die-back. Maybe the shade has gotten to dense over the years. It always blooms nicely in May. Now it is setting hips. I wonder why it has no descendants.
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#1 of 8 posted
12 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Hi, About 20 years ago I got 1 stem with almost no root from a very, very, very old plant and it has grown as hell and suckered too. Today I have 2 big compact plants with suckers almost everywhere around. No much care, almost "wild" and they bloom well in May too, I got 6 red hips and I asked in the forum section if this rose has descendants and if someone would be willing to try to grow them (with no guarantee of any success). Margaret Furness replied me that 'La Belle Sultane' actually has descendants. As a premium member, you can go to the "Lineage" tab to find the descendants. Greetings !
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Have a look at the second part of heritagerosesdotorgdotau/articles/rose-breeding/ (replace dot with .) to see how Warren Millington handles seed. Note that it was written for the southern hemisphere, so you'll need to change the timing.
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#3 of 8 posted
13 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Thank you very much Margaret. This article is very interesting (and this blog seems to be a gold mine for learning). But I am absolutely unexperienced and I am scrared to do this especially that I have only 6 hips. This is why I "send an SOS" in the hope that an experienced person, not necessarily a professional, would be willing to help/take the process.
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I can't help from this distance. But a few points for a beginner: the hip contains a growth inhibitor, so you have to cut into it and take the seeds out: don't plant the whole hip. If you're going to plant in autumn, or if you don't have a cold winter, you'll need to put the seeds in the crisper (vegetable compartment) of your fridge for a few weeks first. One method is to put them between two damp (not wet) kitchen sponges, and put that into a sealed plastic container. When you plant the seeds, don't use heating underneath the pot - most roses evolved in cold-winter climates. Good luck!
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#5 of 8 posted
13 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Thank you Margaret. Haha, no, you physically can't but you help otherwise. Ok, the inhibitor makes sense otherwise the seeds would grow on the mother plant itself, wouldn't they ? What is the best periode for harvesting the hips (it's full Summer here now) ? Do I need to wait until the hips are totally red ? few already are completly dark red but the others still are green/redish. The region where I live (Brittany) is not reputated for having regular rough winters (we benefit of the Gulf Steam passage), it's rather rainy so I will do as you say.
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Mervey, George Thomson says that if any part of the hip has ripe colouring, the seeds are ripe enough to plant. He plants in mid-winter (after putting them in the fridge). Warren Millington says that he would harvest seeds from late summer to mid-autumn, and put the seeds in the fridge for 6 weeks. Both of them are in areas with relatively mild winters. Maybe someone from the northern hemisphere would like to add advice.
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#7 of 8 posted
14 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Margaret, you have a true gift for making complicated things simple and you give me courage, thank you very much :-) I think I am going to choose Warren Millington's method, it seems to fit better to my conditions.
I won't forget to update my progress (or my failure, haha !) at time.
Big, big Thank you Margaret !
Greetings, Françoise
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Initial post
11 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Hello community,
I found 6 red (or almost) hips (open pollination) from my 'La Belle Sultane' which is placed underneath the bigger 'Cherry Meillandecor', did someone already have some fertile seeds from this rose, by the past or recently ? pictures attached.
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La Belle Sultane has descendants listed, as seed parent and as pollen parent. Unfortunately access to the list of descendants is a privilege of supporting members.
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#2 of 2 posted
12 AUG 22 by
Mervey
Thank you Margaret. Yes I know about the access to that list. I asked because I know nothing about the propagation techniques and hoped for someone who could make the try of growing them. This could be a total fail of course but "nothing ventured, nothing gained".
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Initial post
15 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Hello Community, I am new to this website and I may make mistakes in its understanding. I live in Brittany, France; I have a garden since 2000 but started to cultivate it from 2002-2003 with vegetables, few fruit trees and of course flowers of all sorts and roses, mainly old varieties but modern ones also. After a cow herd invasion, I litterally abandonned my garden for more a decade and in 2019 I decided to make a great clean up. To my surprise, although many plants and roses have died, some plants and roses had well survived and are healthy. And there is a modern climbing rose that I can not identify despite all my researches, at home and on the web and here at HelpMeFind. So, its a climber, 2,50 + meters high, big and full flowers, pink edges with white center and reverse, slightly scented, big and relatively thick foliage. Of course I have plenty of photographs and I selected some to upload here.
Thank you very much in advance.
The whole plant, stems, horns and foliage, buds evolution and flowers :
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#1 of 14 posted
15 JUL 21 by
jedmar
Possibly 'Rose Gaujard Clg'
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#2 of 14 posted
18 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you very much for your reply, jedmar.
This rose is a matter of conscience ! On comparison with the two pictures of Rose Gaujard Clg only the colours of the flowers could match. The flowers of my rose are very wide, extremely full of petals and very flat once completly opened. I found some nurseries links but I can't send them via this form. Is there a way to display/send them for helping the identification ?
Just, maybe my rose simply is not entered into the HelpMeFind database...
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#3 of 14 posted
19 JUL 21 by
jedmar
Modern roses would be in the HMF data base. The difficulty is identifying which one it could be. You can post your photos also on the HelpMeFind group in Facebook and add the nursery links there.
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It might be worth looking at Baronne E de Rothschild Clg.
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#6 of 14 posted
19 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you Margaret,
I took a look at and no, this is not my rose either (snif...).
Well, my rose is middle pink with slight salmon-ish tone, the flowers are set either solitary or in cluster (3 to 5 flowers) and there is a "strange" cluster of 5 flowers (third photo).
Both Rose Gaujard and Baronne E. de Rothshild show only solitary flowers.
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#5 of 14 posted
19 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you, I have not Facebook nor any "social" account either. The links I found are about Rose Gaujard, shrub and Climber : petales-de-roses.com (climber) , artisanduvegetal-deauville.fr (climber) , jardiland.com (shrub) and Gaujard themselves who describe it as a shrub and as a climber ( roses-gaujard.fr ). And none of them look similar to my rose. I will post some other photos taken this afternoon.
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Would you remember the name? If I said Antike 89 or Romantica, would you think "those names sound familiar" or "definitely not" without needing to check?
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#8 of 14 posted
21 JUL 21 by
Lee H.
Having Antike 89 in my own garden, I’d agree the resemblance is close.
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I don't know it or grow it, so I'm glad to hear you say it seems similar. I was just comparing these photo with the ones at HMF, and thought I saw a resemblance in foliage, buds and flowers.
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#11 of 14 posted
27 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you very again scvirginia and also Lee H.
That's CRAZY !! I am searching into the 775 pages of "any pink" roses for a week or so and that's you who found MY rose !!!! Yes, that's crazy, LOL ! I don't know how I missed it when I started. Maybe the picture shown didn't catch my eyes. But YES it seems now that my "unknown dark pink" rose has recovered its identity. As 'Antike 89' is a Kordes' creation, I am going to contact them to be absolutely sure about my rose.
Thank you very much all of you for your input and be sure I will update when I get an official answer :-))
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I hope that's it... A good rose is a good rose, no matter what you call it, but it's nice to know plants by name.
Virginia
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#13 of 14 posted
28 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Hello Virginia and all of you,
After a conversation with the Kordes Team, it appears that my rose definitely can be considered as 'Antike 89'.
Here after the last reply from Kordes :
" Le mer. 28 juil. 2021 à 12:59, W.Kordes' Söhne <post@kordes-rosen.com> a écrit :
Ok Francoise,
we are at 99% that it is Antike 89 J
But this rose needs a cut, next spring, to become more bushy.
Best regards
Your Kordes-Rosen Team "
I am so much happy !!!
Thank you very much again,
Françoise, from Brittany - France
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#10 of 14 posted
27 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you very much scvirginia, I am very sorry to reply so lately but I have not received any notification for this thread. Haha ! no, I don't remember the name, I haven't found back any paper invoice with these names so maybe it's PDF invoices stored in my very old computer or in my very old external hard disk and none of these name light up my own memory...
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Initial post
27 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Hello,
I just discovered a strange new stem growing out of one of my Veilchenblau stem. It's a "newborn" (3-4 days old), foliage and stem resemble Veilchenblau but all brownish-redish. Did someone have already experienced this ?
Thank you very much.
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You might, I say might, have Rose Rosette disease. Might there be a rose expert you near where you live whom you could consult? Has RRD shown up in your area? Does the stem resemble new growth on the same plant?
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#3 of 14 posted
28 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you,
I didn't know what is Rose Rosette Disease so I searched for and found "provenwinners . com" for explanation. No, this stem is exactly the same as the whole plant and new growths except the colour. All the other new growths are exactly green.
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#2 of 14 posted
28 JUL 21 by
jedmar
Many young shoots (and foliage) have reddish colour - it is a higher anthocyanin content as protection against UV-light). Wait a while to see if the fresh shoot turns green.
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#4 of 14 posted
28 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you,
I didn't know that. Until now, all my Veilchenblau new stems grew exactly green and this is the only one which is growing brown. That said, the first leaf at the base of the stem have turned green. Wait and see... I marked it with fluo pink elastics for later recognition. I'll post other photos for comparison.
Well, the first 5 photos are of the brown stem, the last two of normal green stems :
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It looks like normal new reddish growth to me. The reddish color might be more common than you remember, or it could be weather-related, if conditions there have been hotter/cooler or wetter/drier than usual where you are?
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#6 of 14 posted
29 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you scvirginia,
Yes, looks normal but reddish. There are lots of weather changes in France since early May and my region, Brittany, doesn't make exception but it is far to be the first time. I took a look at the plant this morning, every new shoot grows green except this one. Do you think this could be the result of a weather change ? Have you ever heard of any Veilchenblau's sport existance (just dreaming... haha !) ?
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I can't provide links, but there are several good photos amongst the Veilchenblau photos of reddish new growth for comparison.
One is from December 2010 (uploaded January 2011), another is from June 2012 (uploaded August 2012), and another, provided by jedmar, is earlier and has no date.
I remember being alarmed by fire-engine-red growth on a Climbing Cecile Brunner once. I don't recall seeing growth that red on that plant before or since, but I might have missed other examples, or just not remembered them.
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Teas and plants descended from them, like Cecile Brunner, are especially likely to have red new growth. For example, the spring flush on "Agnes Saffron's Tea", photo below. Unfortunately it attracts parrots, which have learnt that new growth means that sugary sap can be found in them.
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Yes, Climbing Cecile usually has reddish new growth, but this was a remarkably bright red, and I did have a few moments' panic that it might have RRD. It turned green after a week or so, though.
We don't have your difficulties with opportunistic parrots. There was once a Carolina Parakeet in these parts, but it was hunted to extinction long before I was born...
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#11 of 14 posted
30 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you !
Would Veilchenblau be a hybrid tea ? I have read the "References" and it is just a Crimson Rambler's seedling, a multiflora hybrid. Though some references mention 'Erinnerung an Brod' as the other parent, perpetual hybrid. Is this class descend from Tea ?
I didn't kow about parrots' taste for sugar. We, in France, don't naturally have any parrot species but there is a new pest invading the western Europe : the collared parakeet (Psittacula krameri). An imported lot of 50 indivuals (France) fleed away few decades ago from Roissy airport and since then they multiplied strongly, not being predated, having no killing disease, not being killed by our no longer too cold winters, they nest in the tree holes preventing our european species to reproduce normally, they eat everything they can. And the worst is that they are very intelligent... Here is a screenshot of a youtube video (L'invasion des perruches à collier à l'est de la métropole lilloise) :
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#12 of 14 posted
30 JUL 21 by
Nastarana
"fleed away"? I love it! The boring, correct English is 'fled' but 'fleed' is so much better and more descriptive. The little parrots are cute. No predators? What about housecats? I understand adorable pets were responsible for a number of small animal extinctions on tropical islands.
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#13 of 14 posted
30 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Sorry, being French, English language is not very natural to me. Once I wrote it, I hesitated and finally let it like that. Glad you love my mistake !
Yes, these animals are cute... in the wild in their original countries. They are millions today in Europe, they live in the trees and housecats are... house cats. These birds are seeds and vegetables eaters, they already have started to attack the vegetable crops (in England as I know). I can't imagine the disaster if they start to eat weaten, barley... in the fields before they are ready to be harvested. Like grasshoppers.
Alas, most humans don't think enough about the consequences of their acts, that why this planet is so sick. Because of the dodo's extinction, the forest can not regenerate itself. And so on...
Thank you for posting, I was a bit affraid that I turned off topic too much !
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I'm sorry I confused things. There is nothing in the recorded parentage to suggest Teas in the background of Veilchenblau. In Australia, introduced cats (tame and especially feral) are calculated to kill a million native birds, lizards or other animals per day. Cats are hunters, regardless of what their owners say.
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#10 of 14 posted
30 JUL 21 by
Mervey
Thank you !
I just took a look at all the pictures you mentionned and YES it is exactly that, the one which made me understand better being the stem posted by jedmar but all are extremely helpful.
So, the good thing is I don't have to worry. But my dream gone away (lol) !
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