HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Initial post
5 APR 09 by
 jedmar
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If the breeder strangled himself on March 28, 1879; then the rose must have been around before that?
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Is it recorded in concrete that the rose was bred by the Reverend?
His father was a Nurseryman and given the date of 1880 for the release of this rose,
it seems possible to me that the Father released this rose to commemorate his son.
One entry under the reference tab gives 'Cole' as the breeder.
Is it possible that it was later assumed that the Reverend raised this rose?
Rarely did Breeders name roses after themselves.
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It would make good sense that the rose raised by the Rev. was introduced posthumously by his father (or one of his brothers).
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The only references I can find to the rose are...
From Horticultural Flora of South-eatern Australia
A Brief History of Australian Breeders
Quote "The earliest Australian raised rose was probably 'Rev.T.C.Cole' COMMEMORATING Rev.Cole of Vic and released in 1880."
From Historical Records of Australian Science
MELBOURNE UNIVERSITY
BOTANY in COLONIAL VICTORIA
Quote "Thomas Cornelius Cole (first signature on the matriculation roll; enrolment number 18550001), who happened to come from a horticultural family."
and
"The subsequent COMMEMORATION of the University’s first botany student with
the yellow ‘Rev. T. C. Cole’ rose seems beautifully appropriate.
It originated from a seedling raised by Cole."
The Reverend's Father was also named Thomas Cornelius Cole.
Isn't it possible that a mix up occured over which Cole actually bred the rose?
Incidently-it is not correct that this was the first Australian raised rose.
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Thanks for the additional references Sandie.
They make it clear that the rose was named in memory of the Rev.
Are these from copyright publications? If so, would it be possible to ask permission to add this information to HMF References for this rose?
On the question of whether the breeding of the rose might have been attributed to the wrong T.C. Cole, information from the Brunnings catalogues (1897 etc): ("Rev. T. C. Cole. This is a seedling which originated in this colony, and was raised by our old and esteemed friend, the late Rev. T. C. Cole, .....") seems personal enough to be credible, and the Law, Somner & Co catalogue of 1886 also refers to the rose 'Rev. T. C. Cole' as "a seedling raised by the late Rev. T. C. Cole ...." and this was 3 years before the death of T.C. Cole senior.
Putting the information together, do you think it's safe to assume that the rose was bred some time before 1879 by the Rev T.C. Cole but not named and introduced to commerce until after his death?
This would make 1880 the date of introduction rather than the year the rose was raised.
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Hi Billy-I will PM you re the copyright situation on the quotes.
I did not have access to the info contained in the Brunning and Law,Somner catalogues.
Thats the 'written in concrete' I was asking about in my first post.
Seems conclusive that the Reverend was the raiser.
thanks
Sandie
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Hello Sandie, We all have access to the Brunning and Law Somner catalogues. They, and another 30 items from books and catalogues are all included in the references. Fairly repetitive, but it is all 'written in Helpmefind'.
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If the rose Rev.T.C. Cole was released around 1880, it is a point of fine distinction as to who developed it. Rev TC died in 1879 and was outlived by his father by 10 years (1889). Rev T.C. was well-known in Melbourne for his fine rose garden at St George's Malvern and maintained a life long interest in Roses. From what I know, 10 years of studying the family, I would say that Rev T.C. developed the rose but it may have publicly released after his death by his father and brothers.
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Thank you for this insight.
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#9 of 9 posted
16 FEB 21 by
Johno
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The Argus 1898
Article
IN MY GARDEN-by an Amateur.
"Marechal Niel, Rev.T.C. Cole (a Victorian native), and Cloth of Gold will supply charming
variations between light yellow and deep old gold-the first hanging its head always pensively, the last boldly looking you in the face, and the other coming midway between the
two, of which it is a cross product."
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What a wonderful find Sandie.
Observations like this are treasures.
I think it was Rose Marsh who said of climbing foundlings in Australia that if it's red it invariably gets called Black Boy and if it's yellow, Cloth of Gold - but Rev T.C. Cole was very widely grown - and said to be long-lived - and I hope it is among our foundlings and that it is positively identified one day.
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"...Mr. Shimman, gardener to Mr. H. C. E. Muecke, showed cuts of lilac; Dobbie's white spiral oandytuft (very fine); several roses, including Reine Marie Henriette and Devoniensis, both of which had about 200 blooms on the bushes ; also the hybrid between the well-known Marechal Niel and Cloth of Gold named Rev. T. C. Cole, after the raiser, who grew it in Victoria...."
Evening Journal (Adelaide, SA) Mon 8 Oct 1894 page 2 SA Gardeners' Society
Muecke is a wellknown older family in SA and we had a HRIA member.
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It might be worth while in a warm climate to attempt that cross again.
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Pat, I am sure you are talking about Paddy Muecke who was also a long term member of the Rose Society. See the ARA's 1990-15, 1991-15, 1999-47, and 2003-60. In the 1999-47 her address was given as Heathpool, S.A. but I am sure she grew up on a famous property. She loved old roses and in the 1999-47 ARA she mentioned 'Souvenir de la Malmaison', 'Lady Hillingdon', 'Albertine', 'Duchess de Brabant", 'Fantin-Latour', 'Molly Sharman-Crawford' and 'Celine Forestier' and another five more modern roses, as amongst her favourite roses. Perhaps she might have talked to other members about an old yellow climber at her childhood home.
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Continuing the thread from ‘Other’, April 10, 2009
[in passing.... the 1922 reference for the Ardagh sport is most interesting] – Patricia Routley
From the descriptions in the reference section on Ardagh's Cecile Brunner it sounds more like 'Spray Cecile Brunner'. Large shrub,suitable for hedging etc. The early Australian references that I have also describe C.B.Climbing in a similar manner. Is it possible that the Australian version was 'Spray Cecile Brunner'? – Sandie Maclean
Hello Sandie,
That’s what I found most interesting about the 1922 reference too. I think that with this rose, anything is possible. Because the official ‘Spray Cecile Brunner’ didn’t hit the market until 1941, I think the answer has to be that Cecile was genetically unstable to start with. If you have a look at the first generation descendants from it, you will see lots of similar roses (Helpmefind, it would be great to see the sports designated somehow in the descendant listing), One most visible sign of that unstableness is the way it sometimes produces a flower from the middle of an existing flower.
You mentioned elsewhere that you had received four 'Spray Cecile Brunner's when ordering 'Climbing Cecile Brunner'. Do you still have room? Would you like some cuttings of my climber (provenance: the Pinjarra Heritage Rose Garden, bed 2, site 1). I’ve had ‘Cecile Brunner Climbing’ now for 12 years and it flowers weeks before ‘Spray Cecile Brunner’ in spring, but not too much at all after that. Both roses are on opposite sides of the path so the obvious differences in habit between the two plants is quite plain to see.
Patricia
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Even though the official 'Spray Cecile Brunner' didn't turn up until 1941 I am inclined
towards thinking that Ardagh's version was also the 'Spray' version.
As mentioned before-quite a few Australian Nurseries sell the 'Spray' version as the climber.
Interesting what you say about the tendancy to proliferation with 'Spray Cecile Brunner"-I actually used photos of one of the flowers to demonstrate proliferation on
a website.I also used a photo of a flower from the same bush to demonstrate fasciation.
A very obliging rose for showing anomalies. :)
I would love the REAL climbing C.B.-thanks for the offer.
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I've just chanced on another Australian reference to "Climbing Cecile Brunner" that definitely sounds like the spray form and not the climber.
It's from a book by Harry Hazlewood's brother, Walter, published in 1968 and reads:
"That gem, Cecile Brunner, seems to be in a class of its own. It is not a Wichuraiana or a Polyantha. There is a dwarf form and a so-called climber. The dwarf grows to 3 or 4 feet high. The climber sends out long shoots, but is not a climber in the ordinary sense of the term. It is mostly grown as a tall bush and the long shoots are tipped back. Sprays of bloom about 2 feet long or more can be had from the climber and it is a great favourite with the florists. A good clean foliage is another thing in its favour."
I've added this ref to the Cecile Brunner and Clg Cecile Brunner (Ardagh) entries.
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Reply
#2 of 7 posted
11 APR 09 by
Cass
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Where does Kerschaw fit in with yet another Climbing Cécile Brunner? Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses connus shows Kerschaw, 1904, for Cl. Cécile Brunner. I cannot find Journal des roses 1905 online, but the little I can read in google reports "Kerschaw, horiticulteur à Melbourne."
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Cass, That spelling of Kerschaw is a little wrong I think.
All I have been able to find on the man and any connection with 'Cl. Cecile Brunner' is as follows:
1933 Australian Rose Annual
p24. Harry H. Hazlewood. Rose Stock Experiments. Climbing Cecil Brunner was used experimentally by the late Mr. G. W. Kershaw and good results were obtained.
1999. Peter Cox Australian Roses
p30. Although mentioned in Modern Roses 8, we have no other details concerning G. W. Kershaw.
2002 Richard Aitken & Michael Looker Oxford Companion to Australian Gardens
p431. The National Rose Society of New South Wales (1913) was founded by .....with commercial growers George Wilkinson Kershaw (1861-1924) and......
Brent C. Dickerson Old Roses: The Master List 2nd ed.
p463 ‘Mrs. G. W. Kershaw’ (dark rose pink. HT. A. Dickson, 1906.
Patricia
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#4 of 7 posted
12 APR 09 by
Cass
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Thanks, Patricia. Brent Dickerson also mentions Kershaw in connection with Cl. Cécile Brunner. What I'm looking for is a link between Kershaw and Ardagh, one perhaps the discoverer, the other the introducer.
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Brent has also picked up that mis-spelling of Kerschaw (Old Roses: The Master List 2nd ed. p131.
The only link to date is that they both lived in Australia and were rosarians.
Ardagh lived in Victoria and Kershaw in New South Wales.
Ardagh had his own nursery so it seems unlikely he would have given 'Cl. Cecile Brunner' to Kershaw to introduce.
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Yet another clear description (and an earlier date) that indicates that Richard Ardagh's plant was what we now know as 'Spray Cecile Brunner':
1915 W E. Lippiatt’s General catalogue.
p27. Climbing Cecil Brunner (R. Ardah, 1902). A sport of extraordinary vigour, carrying the flowers sometimes 18in. to 20in. above the foliage; blossoms are produced both singly and in large trusses, but no larger in flower than the dwarf. Lasts in flower a long time (Climbing Fairy.) Not exactly a true climber, but makes a very large bush.
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copying posting May 27, 2009 from Breeder: Alister Clark to 'The Ruddy'
'The Ruddy' is interesting, Sandie. It almost sounds as though it may have been one of Alister's seedlings, but it doesn't exactly say that it was. Has any one else heard of 'The Ruddy'? - Patricia Routley
Hi Patricia-the whole paragraph was about Alister Clark's seedling roses so I would
assume that 'The Ruddy' was one of his seedlings that he had given a name to.
I looked for further reference to 'The Ruddy' but could find nothing. - Sandie Maclean
Well, we will assume it was an Alister Clark seedling too. Better that, than to lose this information again. We will open up a file for 'The Ruddy' and perhaps one day more information may enlighten us further. Well done Sandie. That, along with 'Quick Sticks' is the second Alister Clark you have bought to our notice. - Patricia Routley
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Thanks Patricia-Researching rose related articles in the Argus is time consuming
but is a voyage of discovery.
I must admit that finding 'Quick Sticks' and 'The Ruddy' has been a thrill.
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#2 of 3 posted
3 OCT 14 by
Jane Z
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At least 2 newspaper reports did name the rose as "The Ruddy", with a u, not an e. Whilst that could have been an error, it does seem likely that the name was simply a 'working title'.
Ruddy was also a term in common parlance in that era, for florid, crimson red etc.
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#3 of 3 posted
3 OCT 14 by
Jay-Jay
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Ruddy is a color that is often seen with Abyssinian cats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abyssinian_cat
And it gives that cat the distinct wild look.
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