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petera 
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The hips wither before they fully develop and I couldn't find anything like fertile seeds.
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The plant in my previous garden didn't have persisting hips either
I note that three suggested IDs (Captain Christy, Georg Arends, Baroness Rothschild) each have at least one offspring listed, as seed parent.
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#2 of 2 posted
15 MAR by
petera
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I have grown Georg Arends and Baroness Rothschild in the past and, provided my plants were correctly named, Shalice is neither. I have never grown Capitaine Christy so can only compare it to the pictures on HMF. CC has longish pedicels while on S they are very short and consequently the inflorescences are short and crowded like those of many HPs. Many pictures show CC flowers drooping, S flowers are on rigid stems and cannot droop. S has very large, extravagantly foliose sepals while those of CC are almost simple, with sometimes a couple of little outgrowths (I don't know a name) on the margins. Some of the pictures of full-on flowers of CC look incredibly like S (see those from Georges Francis March 09) but if you look at a side view the flowers are totally different.
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Definitely not thornless and the leaves don't look very HP unless the plant is from late in the era when some were as much china as damask. The flowers look HP but to my nose they have a very strong lemon scent which suggests china or other influence. I have never known a citrus-scented HP.
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PhotoDiscussion id : 170-009
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With all the yellow and coral shading this doesn't look like an HP.
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Initial post
10 JAN 21 by
petera
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I can't see any consistent difference between "Grandma Pfeilers" and 'Laurent Carle'. I think they are the same rose. I have uploaded a bunch of pictures comparing buds, leaves and prickles in my garden. The colour of the prickles differs but they vary between stems of different vigour and age on the same plant. Both plants are on John N's multiflora root stock but 'Laurent Carle' has been in the ground for about 4 years while this is only the second growing season for "Grandma Pfeilers". Despite that GP is almost as large a plant under very similar growing conditions.
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Gratitude to you for doing this close comparison work and sharing your findings petera.
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#2 of 12 posted
11 JAN 21 by
petera
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Billy,
Are there any other characteristics you think I should check?
Peter
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Are the stamen filaments and anthers basically the same colours in both your roses? Do the innards match up? Apart from that, I can't think of anything you haven't covered well in words or images - good photos of all the useful features to compare.
That extravagant inflorescence in your photo is marvellous!
It is on my wish list - there's no substitute for actually growing the roses - watching them over the seasons and handling them, watching for seasonal similarities/differences, hip production, disease resistance etc.
Thanks for the chance to get to know this rose in advance.
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#4 of 12 posted
15 JAN 21 by
petera
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I am going to have to back track on my opinion that this is Lauren Carle. The latest flush of flowers on my GP in mid-January are mid pink, but those on Lauren Carle haven't changed from their usual cerise red. I am totally confused again as the plants are indistinguishable vegetatively and the spring flowers were all the same colour. The warm weather has only just started here and the LC flowers were about a week ahead of those on GP so they may have not experienced the environmental trigger that caused the change. I will have to check what subsequent flushes do.Sometimes I hate roses.
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I can relate to that.
Have pairs of roses that have been growing together here for what you’d think would be long enough to know whether they are the same or different but I continue to vacillate.
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PeterA, what are the canes like on your bush?
Do the petals burn in heat?
When would you say was its best season? Early or late... winter, spring, summer or autumn?
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#7 of 12 posted
14 FEB 24 by
petera
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Patricia,
GP and LC are vegetatively identical and usually the flowers are the same colour, but sometimes the flowers on GP can be a bit paler, depending on the weather. I think both are just different clones of LC that have diverged slightly, which one is closer to the original is anyone's guess. Flowers of both clones burn a bit in hot weather but not as badly as some of the darker reds. It was 37C yesterday with a screaming north-westerly and the flowers were still there but singed around the edges. My GP continues to be a bit more vigorous but both are good performers in the garden and repeat rapidly throughout the growing season, better than a lot of moderns. There isn't a particular season when they are best. I can photograph the stems for you tomorrow. Moderately prickly with largish prickles. What particular characteristics were you interested in?
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Just can’t get Red Radiance (hybrid tea, Gude 1916) characteristics out of my mind.
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We can't even assess relationship, since the parentage of Laurent Carle is unnamed seedling x unnamed seedling. But if you did a blindfold sniff test of a bloom each of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Red Radiance, you would have no doubt that they were different.
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#10 of 12 posted
15 FEB 24 by
petera
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I have uploaded pictures of stems of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Laurent Carle. GP at left and centre and LC on the right. All were taken today in my garden. Short flowering stems are generally prickle-free on both clones.
I don't currently grow Red Radiance but I think it has the same ball of petals in the centre of the bloom even when fully open, just like Radiance while GP opens completely to show stamens.
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Thank you both Margaret and Peter.
I have added a few characteristics to the main page. Shall I add “smooth pedicels”? Photos of the bare winter bush would be valuable I think. It looks a wonderful rose and to know it is so old, gives it added value.
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Smooth receptacles. The bud photo I posted does show some activity on the pedicel - not sure if they're glands or tiny prickles.
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