HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Initial post
29 OCT 17 by
NikosR
Does anybody know if Peggy Martin has found her way to Europe? I'm also wondering if she's some sort of Noisette.
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#1 of 13 posted
29 OCT 17 by
jedmar
There is one listed in a Swiss garden
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The traits seem to imply it is at least a descendent of Rosa multiflora (that does not rule out other types, as well), and that a European rose more complex than Old Blush was involved. Beyond that, I cannot tell by phenotypical traits alone.
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I've never seen, nor grown it, but wondered for some time if it might be, 'Weeping China Doll'.
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I'm not seeing the fuzzy prickles on China Doll/Cl.CD that I am on the photos of PM. They do have a similar petal shape, form, and that color dense line down the center of the petals, but just too different in color. PM seems to have slightly more rugose foliage indentations, but they seem to have similar waxy enamel and sheen.
A lot of descendants of Turner's Crimson Rambler and Suberb pass on that strange fuzzy prickled peduncle trait. There are so many and they sport so often that proper ID may prove difficult.
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Growing conditions can affect presentation, as you know.
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The fuzzy prickled peduncles seem to be static in the photos on HMF from 4 gardens. Unsure of each growers climate. This odd trait seems to be rare. In one of the photos, it almost reminded me of moss roses. It makes me wonder if the OGR crossed into multiflora descended from Rosa rubiginosa, Rosa centifolia , or Rosa fedtschenkoana.
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I see what you mean regarding the peduncles...
As they say, "common things are common", and heaven knows this rings true in roses.
Whatever "Peggy" turns out to be, no doubt it was something common at one point in history.
I've heard some growers know the original identity, but have so far have refused to make it public.
I do think there are those in the world of rose rustling, and "discovery", that prefer to keep original identities buried.
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Nothing sells better than a "mystery"!
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#13 of 13 posted
26 MAR 23 by
Lee H.
Peggy, by the way, is very fertile. I kept a few OP hips from last year and got nearly 100% germination this spring. Very tiny seeds.
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I see what you mean regarding the peduncles...
As they say, "common things are common", and heaven knows this rings true in roses.
Whatever "Peggy" turns out to be, no doubt it was something common at one point in history.
I've heard some growers know the original identity, but have so far have refused to make it public.
I do think there are those in the world of rose rustling, and "discovery", that prefer to keep original identities buried.
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Yes Robert. I’ve seen a lot of this in Australia. If the “precious” old foundling is selling well and raising funds for…whatever, there is no way that conversation will be entered into.
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Patricia...
Yes, sad to say, but true.
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Yeah, I strongly feel it was something once common as well. What that is, I don't know. I often see ramblers on old homesteads in NW Oregon. But I don't feel like going to inspect it, risking leaving with shotgun particles in my rear lol.
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Initial post
18 OCT 17 by
NikosR
(How) are we sure that the referenced parent of this rose is the reddish bourbon 'Madame Desprez' and not the white China by the same name and breeder?
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#1 of 3 posted
19 OCT 17 by
jedmar
We cannot be sure. The first time 'Mme Desprez' has been mentioned as parent of SdlM is in 1879, 35 years after the rose was introduced. Hearsay or based on lost documents, who knows? However, SdlM was from the very beginning listed as a Bourbon rose. It then makes sense that at least one of its parents was a Bourbon. As roses are very variable it is not surprising when a red rose has white offspring.
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#2 of 3 posted
20 OCT 17 by
NikosR
Thank you. My question was a bit sneaky.. Being a progeny of a China and a Tea would go far in explaining this rose's atypical bush form, habit and floriferousness for a 'bourbon' IMO.
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#3 of 3 posted
15 MAY 22 by
CybeRose
The 1879 reference goes into more detail: Journal of Horticulture, 37:147-148 (1879) ROSE SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON. M. Beluze, sen., Rose-grower at Lyons, sowed in the year 1840 a number of seeds which produced the magnificent Rose under consideration. Two years later the raiser was in a position to affirm that something very exceptional had come to light, although at that time he had but one flower, and that one the solitary shoot of the parent plant itself only 13 inches high. This acquisition was brought under the cognisance of the distinguished rosarian M. Plantier, who at once pronounced it to be the best introduction of the times. The flower is distinguished by its rare perfection of form and colouring, yet the first flower was but little over an inch in diameter; but when buds were inserted on strong Bengal stocks the result was natural-sized flowers averaging 3 inches in diameter. That was in the year 1843, the year it was sent out. The most important question, however, was to determine of which variety the seeds which produced this flower were saved. After several delays the Horticultural Society of the Rhone convened several meetings to take this matter into consideration, and ultimately came to the following conclusion: That as seeds of Roses are, except in rare instances, not sown as so many different varieties, it follows that each pan contained the seed of one class. It is therefore not quite certain, though extremely probable, that Souvenir de la Malmaison is the offspring of the Bourbon Rose Madame Desprez; and that is the opinion of the raiser himself, further strengthened by M. Plantier.
If this assertion requires further proof it will be found in the fact that nearly all the seeds gathered and sown came from Madame Desprez, and it will be found upon careful examination that there is a great similarity of habit and foliage between the two varieties. The Bourbon Roses Jaquard [Jacquard], Cendres de Napoleon, Etoile du Berger, raised previous to Souvenir de la Malmaison, are all the offspring of Madame Desprez. The parent plant of Souvenir de la Malmaison still exists at Lyons, where it continues to flourish in spite of being cut down for propagation and growing in a position not at all favourable to it—that is, facing the south. Still growing against the wall where it was first planted out in 1841, this knotty old lady, whose children are to-day distributed throughout the world, still blooms very abundantly, notwithstanding that she had to endure the hardest winters and such severe gales that everything was swept away except one or two eyes at the base.
Souvenir de la Malmaison, with its great massive flowers, white slightly diffused with flesh colour, of admirable form, will always retain the exclusive privilege of being a gem of the very first water, esteemed and sought after by the lovers of Roses of all nations, who continue to find in this remarkable variety a full supply of suitable Roses which help to enrich the choicest bouquets at all seasons—(Journal des Roses.)
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Initial post
17 AUG 19 by
NikosR
Extreme balling tendencies in my climate. Best flush of the season which is in early spring is ruined every single year.
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Initial post
29 SEP 16 by
NikosR
I believe the bush form of Paul Lede is extinct (or at least not available in commerce as such) and most probably all photos displayed under this entry should be under cl. Paul Lede. I know for a fact that Oldrosarian's photo of Paul Lede is of the climbing form (from discussions in Gardenweb) and this form has been reintroduced in commerce recently as Mons. Paul Lede by Palantine in Canada from budwood supplied by her. In Europe cl. Paul Lede has been available for long also as Paul Lede.
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Interesting. It is fairly easy to prove that a rose is a climber. But a little harder to prove that the little squirt is the original bush for it could be the climber growing in unsuitable conditions. Perhaps comments from others -and the HMF photographers on the height of their bushes might help. I'll send the photographers a private message - there is only four.
To add a little weight to your theory, I note that the same photo has been used for both the climber and bush on the ARS MR site.
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#2 of 10 posted
3 OCT 16 by
NikosR
Please check out this thread http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/4171313/palatine-has-my-all-time-fav-climber?n=14 where Old Rosarian (Lynette) discusses her rose. There's no bush form of Paul Lede under that name in commerce in Europe nor in Australia afaik and I don't believe there's in N. America either. Confusion might stem from this fact since nurseries do not find it necessary to differentiate.
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#3 of 10 posted
3 OCT 16 by
NikosR
Also please check out this older thread where morrisnoor (Maurizio Usai), a world renown and respected landscape architect and rosarian from Sardinia, Italy mentions that he believes the bush form is extinct. http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1713074/paul-lede
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NikosR, I am sure you are right. I've been gleaning from the books and will add references. Later edit. Because of your comments, NikosR; the square brackets in the 2001 reference; and the 1965 reference, I have marked this 1902 hybrid tea "believed extinct or lost". I have also moved all photos into the climber file. Anyone who disagrees is most welcome to move them back as that would signify this original bush form might not be extinct.
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#5 of 10 posted
7 OCT 16 by
Hartwood
Paul Lede was definitely a climber in my garden. I got it from Roses Unlimited in 2007. After putting on size and having a few wonderful years of bloom, it was damaged by severe winter cold three years ago and it never recovered. RIP.
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Thanks Hartwood. That justifies moving your photo out of the bush and into the climber.
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I have received the following private message from member Alex.m in Austria:
Mine is the original bushform-the height is 70-90cm. I got it from Eva Kotzmuth the former owner of Giovannis Garden and she maybe got it from Sangerhausen or Martin Weingart. Giovannis Garden had a huge varitey of very rare roses ( I'm very happy to get many from them)- unfortunatly it dosent exist anymore. ......I know its the last :-( Eva Kotzmuth gave it to me because she know that I will take good care of it. Unfortunatly its a very delicate plant - it dosen´t bloom this year and is a very slow grower. I will talk to a friend of mine who is the owner of a rose nursery in the near (Baumschule Ecker) maybe he will propagate i
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#8 of 10 posted
13 OCT 16 by
NikosR
That's very interesting! It would be good to know if Alex.m's delicate bush is budded or bare root. Maybe it would benefit from a climate milder than Austria's.
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#9 of 10 posted
18 NOV 16 by
alex.m.
hi, Usually even delicate chinas like the climate in my garden, but this fellow has special needs and is very easily offended ;-) . Next season I will try to propagate it with cuttings.
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#10 of 10 posted
10 JUN 19 by
Thornbush
I have a found rose in California zone 9b that may be Paul Lédé, The undersides of the petals are pink. It opens with a cream top side, apricot at the base of the petals. The stamens are maroon. My rooted cutting makes almost continuous huge, and hugely scented blossoms with maroon stamens. Does this sound like Paul? Or climbing Paul?
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