HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
|
HubertG 
-
-
Initial post
1 JUL 13 by
goncmg
|
Immeasurably important rose considering not only that it begat Queen Elizabeth lines (and appears in many 60's-70's miniatures along with R. Wichuriana), but also the clear vermillion color, very unique for 1945. Foliage is lovely: bright and glossy, the plant often produces huge trusses of bloom and the scent is notable for me, rather spicey. Downside is the addiction to blackspot. Tantau was known for not disclosing a lot of his breeding parentages and I have always wondered if the cross that resulted in Floradora was not more complex, Baby Chateau x R. Roxburghii SEEDLING or something. Seems very odd that with that father as listed the plant would look so modern, everything about it, and that there wouldn't have been some non-recurrent grandchildren (Queen E's generation).....??? Does anyone have any opinions on this or any information?
|
REPLY
|
|
I too have been a bit interested in 'Floradora' but it has never come my way. I've spent an hour or so gathering reference page numbers for both 'Floradora' and 'Floradora Cl.' in case I ever get the impetus or need to look closer at the rose.
In the 1950 'Australian Rose Annual', C. H. Isaac, Victoria. said the parentage of 'Floradora' was 'Baby Chateau) (Hyb Poly) x Rosa Multibracteata (Species). So far it was the only mention of a parentage I've seen, but my search has only been a perfunctory one.
Patricia
|
REPLY
|
|
If I had to guess, I would hypothesize that the Rosa roxbughii pollen was not truly accepted, and that it prompted the female parts of 'Baby Chateau' to double itself into fertile seed. I have used a relative of R. roxburghii on 'Belle Epoque', which was pollinated between rains, removed of any male parts prior to pollen release, and then covered. The likelihood of impurity was really low, and the likelihood of an impure seed germinating was even lower. The only surviving seedling came out as a near clone of 'Belle Epoque', except strong in color, completely seed sterile, and extremely thin. It was a very weird occurrence. Vigor was oddly strong.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 11 posted
27 OCT 15 by
goncmg
|
Really interesting, Michael! Looking at Floradora I think you may have nailed it!
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 11 posted
1 FEB 18 by
CybeRose
|
Michael,
Another possibility is that Floradora and its siblings are partial hybrids. Pollination occurs in the usual way, but the paternal chromosomes are mostly eliminated. This phenomenon has been observed in other genera, such as Helianthus, Solanum, etc.
Wulff (1954) wrote: "There is another remarkable fact to note. Without going into details I may state here that the three roses 'Floradora', 'Käthe Duvigneau', and 'Cinnabar', as well as the hybrid 46534, did not show any traces of the male parent Rosa Roxburghii in their morphology. The first three roses are true hybrid polyanthas, the latter is a true hybrid tea, indicating thus that the genes which are responsible for the respective characters of growth habit and for many characters of shape and size of flowers, fruits, leaves and spines are dominant to the allelic genes of R. Roxburghii. Only anatomical studies revealed a certain similarity and relationship to the latter species."
It would have been helpful if he had given us more information about those anatomical studies.
Karl
|
REPLY
|
|
Hi, Karl,
Interesting. You're right. That just begs for more information, with questions to follow.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#6 of 11 posted
3 FEB 18 by
CybeRose
|
Michael,
I have a list of possible examples of partial hybridization ... some old, some new ... that are suggestive at least.
If you are interested in the subject.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/ExceptionalCrosses.html
Karl
|
REPLY
|
|
Thank you!!!
I bookmarked them for nighttime hours.
|
REPLY
|
|
link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s001220100746
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#9 of 11 posted
3 SEP 21 by
Plazbo
|
I agree with the more info about those anatomical studies would have been nice. I've not found the thorns to be particularly recessive with my Baby Faurax x R. Roxburghii Normalis seedlings. Granted they are still quite young and may change but they look more rox hybrid (growth shape) than Baby Faurax. Will be interesting to see what happens with the flowering and hips when they mature enough. Flakey bark (not just browning/woody like in this picture attached) seems to be appearing on some of them around the base where they are thickest (all still very thin wood, small plants) but I may be jumping the gun on that.
I can't put too much focus on the leaflets, while BF typically has 5-7 and the seedlings 9-11, 9 isn't out of the typical realm for multiflora....may increase with maturity, will find out sooner or later.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#10 of 11 posted
today by
HubertG
|
I found the following early reference giving the multibracteata pedigree in the 'American Nurseryman' of March 1, 1943, page 35.
"Rose Registrations. [...] Floradora. Hybrid polyantha. A seedling, cross of Baby Chateau x multibracteata, originated by Mathias Tantau, Ueterson, Germany, and to be introduced by the Conard-Pyle Co. in 1943. Plant described as bushy, upright, with abundant large, leathery foliage, vigorous and hardy. Cupped blooms two and one-half to two and three-fourths inches across, with fifty to fifty-five petals of red. Slight spicy fragrance. Moderate growth. Blooms singly and several together, continuously."
The American Rose Magazine of Jan-Feb 1943 on page 35 records that it won a Certificate of Merit in the A.R.S. Test Garden Awards for 1942, with no mention of pedigree other than its classification as a Hybrid Polyantha.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#11 of 11 posted
today by
jedmar
|
Reference and award added, thank you!
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
To Luke - Canberra1913!
Dear Luke,
May we all have grandsons of your calibre.
I think I have Helen Traubel’, but there is a tiny doubt in my mind. I planted an own root plant in an area which later became too shaded and it has never done well. In 2024 I moved it to a pot and it is doing better now, but still a small plant. It doesn’t seem to have a weak neck.
I think my plant can donate one cutting though if you want to try it. I can wrap it in only just damp newspaper and if it callouses up, I can post it later.
But you should try to get it from others too to play it safe. (The 1986 reference says it may be hard to propagate - but I have done it once). Johno, Cheryl Moore, and Yvonne Foster - can your plants donate any wood?
Luke, I think you should remove your email address from your comment as you might regret the spam that it may attract.
|
REPLY
|
|
Dear Patricia,
I am so glad someone has had luck with propagating it! I have gone on two road trips from Canberra to Melbourne to pick up cuttings but unfortunately they didn't take and the mother plant there has since died.
Following that loss, I must've sent over 40 emails out to nurseries with no luck, and so I can't stress how uplifting it was to receive your message.
With all that, I wouldn't want to stress your plant, but if you could spare a cutting, I would be so incredibly grateful. I would be more than happy to post a satchel or cover any costs involved.
My grandmother was one of the first people in Australia to grow the climbing variety of the 'Helen Traubel' and it was her pride and joy - once covering a whole verandah. I know it's only a small gesture but she has done so much for me and so if I could help rekindle any of those memories, I think that would be a huge win in my book.
Please let me know if there's anything I can do and feel free to send me a private message (or any of the other contact methods I previously sent - I have removed them from the message but can resend - thanks for that!)
Kind Regards,
Luke
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#2 of 5 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
|
Luke, I just wanted to add that Ross Roses in South Australia still has 'Helen Traubel' on their 'In Collection' list. This normally means that plants aren't currently available but can be grafted on special request. Nevertheless I'd still contact them to see if they have any loose specimens they might be able to send this winter, but if not, you can then put a special order in for next year, just in case cuttings don't work out.
|
REPLY
|
|
Hi Hubert! Thank you so much for your recommendation! I've been in touch with Andrew at Ross Roses and he mentioned that he might have something in 2026. However, with Gran being 93 and not feeling her best, time really is of the essence and I really do want to get her a bloom as soon as possible. It really is so lovely to have the insight and help from so many passionate gardeners on this site, I really should've started here when I started searching two years ago!
Thank you so much again,
Luke
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 5 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
|
Luke, you're very welcome, and I understand your urgency. I really hope you get one soon.
|
REPLY
|
|
Confirm with Andrew whether he has the bush or the climber.
And I’ve sent you a private message on where you may be able to get some blooms next spring.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Such unusual petal markings, it's almost like the veining you see in marble. I don't think I've seen anything similar in another rose. Very nice!
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Which roses give you the longest lasting blooms (on the plant, not necessarily in a vase)?
The best in my SE England garden are:
Dublin Bay, each flower lasts 4 weeks
Parade, 3 weeks
Ginger Syllabub, 2 weeks
Elmshorn, 2 weeks
(I don't seem to notice the bushes as much as the climbers.)
I think longer lasting flowers make for the most color. Blooms that only last a few days usually repeat faster and can be very floriferous (my stand outs are For Yours Eyes Only and Alibaba), but I really prefer longer lasting blooms. I can’t understand why no one talks about this! I would always go for the longest lasting flowers when buying a rose if this info was available, but it is quite hard to find.
Most newer rose varieties only last a few days each. I think in recent decades, rose breeders have concentrated on healthy foliage and fragrance, whereas in the 1950s-70s long lasting blooms seem to have been a higher priority, and most last a week or more. Older roses than that I think vary by family, but I don't have a lot of experience with them.
Thoughts?
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#1 of 5 posted
11 JUN by
HubertG
|
At the moment in winter in Sydney I've noticed my 'Europeana' is giving bloom that doesn't seem to age, lasting for weeks.
I have a pale pink seedling which I bred, 'General Schablikine' x 'Lorraine Lee', which has given winter flowers lasting in good condition for nearly four weeks. It was surprising since neither parent lasts that long, 'General Schablikine' in particular lasting maybe four days at best.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thanks for your reply. Interesting that the seedling can differ from the parents in this way. Should I look forward to your new rose coming on the market someday? ;)
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 5 posted
12 JUN by
HubertG
|
Christineb, it's just a hobby for me, but if I did ever produce something really worthwhile I wouldn't rule out trying to introduce it.
Regarding long lasting roses, I'd say probably any rose initially bred for the florist industry that has become popular in gardens stands a good chance of lasting longer than average. I bought on impulse 'Our Vanilla' a few weeks ago, and it is supposed to be such a type of rose, and it is described as having papery petals. It's already sending out shoots, so I'll let you know later on how long they last.
I remember reading an old reference that 'Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria' was outstanding in how well it lasted. I tried growing it years ago but rarely got a flower.
'Peter Frankenfeld' is popular in Australia and for me it lasts well on the bush. It does have quite a lot of the early twentieth century American florist roses in its background, which might explain that.
'Camp David' is another one I grow with lasting flowers. I even made a post a couple of years ago about mine lasting two and a half weeks. It's a surprisingly good winter flowerer here too.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 5 posted
12 JUN by
Lee H.
|
From casual observation, my top 4:
Beauty Secret
Stars ‘n’ Stripes
Florentina
O.L. Weeks
The latter is very resistant to fading and bluing, and may also be the most vigorous and floriferous hybrid tea in my garden. Yet I’ve found little about it in the literature.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thank you both for your replies. I've looked up all of the roses you mention. So many of them are red-- I wonder if that is coincidence.
Europeana, Peter Frankenfeld, and O.L. Weeks do not seem to be available in the UK unfortunately.
|
REPLY
|
|
|
