HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Adding a Q & A posted 8 days ago under a general heading:
Q by VMartini
Hello all,
I'm researching the story behind the Mme Caroline Testout rose, and noticed on the description page for Mme Caroline Testout the rose is listed as being dedicated to the wife of a magistrate of Grenoble. Does anyone know where this information came from? The other more repeated story about the Testout rose is that Caroline was a dressmaker from Grenoble who bought silks in Lyon, and purchased naming rights to the rose as a PR stunt for her business in London. Trying to track down the source of this alternate story, about she being a magistrate's wife.
Thanks so much,
Veronica
A by jedmar:
There is a lot of hearsay and copy paste regarding the attribution of the name:
- Journal des Roses of January 1910 says: dedicated to a lady of Grenoble, a lover of flowers
- Biltmore roses catalogue of 1913 : "named in honor of a distinguished and enthusiastic Rose-lover"
- House & Garden of 1929: "a fashionable couturière of London" [20th century books say a fashionable dressmaker of Grenoble who had salons in Paris and London!]
- The Gardeners Chronicle of May 29, 1937: "wife of a friend and customer of his who was a leading magistrate in Grenoble....M. Testout was an enthusiastic amateur gardener and had considerable success locally, principally in raising Gladioli"
- Les Amis des Roses of December 1939: wife of a magistrate of Grenoble
Now for some fact checking:
- There is no evidence of a couturière/dressmaker named Testout or Testoud in Grenoble, Paris, or London. If she was so successful, we should have found some trace of her on the web. This seems a made up story.
- The name Testout or Testoud is indeed common in the Grenoble area
- An Adolphe Testout bred a chrysanthemum 'Vaucanson' in 1893. No info on gladioli.
- A magistrat in France is a member of a court. There was indeed a A. Testout who was at the Court of Appelation in Grenoble in 1882. He is, however, mentioned as an amateur entomologist. Is this the same as Charles Adolphe Edmond Testout (January 17, 1845 - May 13, 1912 Grenoble)?
- The Zoologisches Adresssbuch of 1895 lists (p. 274) a Ch. Testout at 112 Cours Berriat, Grenoble, with collection of insects and butterflies. He is a Greffier (clerk) at the Court of Appelations. This address is a multi-story apartment building in the centre of the town. No garden in sight.
- Earlier, in 1855 a M. Testout is mentioned as propriétaire (landowner) in "La Frise, près de Polygone, 10 minutes de Grenoble". This La Frise is not far from the Cours Berriat above.
- A Mme Testout was a science teacher at the gymnasium for girls in Grenoble until 1901. Was she named Caroline?
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A person can be a lover of flowers without having a garden. In town, a person could have a conservatory or some other way of taking care of flowers without an outside garden; or the person could simply be a person who, without having a garden of her own, has an enthusiastic interest in horticulture, flower displays in parks, or floral exhibitions. It also was not unusual in those days for 'the better sort' to have not only a town house for purposes of society and having a place to stay when in town on business, but also another more private residence out in the countryside, where a person so minded could do all the gardening she might like.
Not that I believe the dressmaker story in the least in this case; but in truth there is precedent for it. Moreau-Robert's 'Mme. Yorke' possibly (speculating!) commemorates a prominent hat-making worthy of that name whose main shop was at 40/51 Conduit St., London, but of whom it was recalled in 1895 that 'adopted the French plan of making hats and bonnets to suit individual customers, and she is one of the few gentlewomen in business who believe in advertising; for the generality of lady dress-makers do not seem to care to avail themselves of the ordinary methods of publicity. She pays frequent visits to Paris, and adapts rather than copies French fashions. Every hat turned out of her establishment is designed either by herself or her daughter.' [The Idler, vol. 8, 1895, p. 479] Do the blossoms of 'Mme. Yorke' look like the fashionable creation of an expert milliner? Perhaps. One thinks of the found rose 'Grandmother's Hat'.
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#2 of 7 posted
10 MAR by
 HubertG
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I'd be asking if the original name at its introduction was 'Caroline Testout' or 'Mme Caroline Testout'. Maybe she wasn't married at all, and if she was married I'd then ask why the rose was introduced with her first name and not her husband's first name. I don't know the French etiquette of the time surrounding that point, but if she was married and her first name was used because she had some celebrity of some sort in fashion circles you might expect some trace of her to survive in old magazines etc.
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#3 of 7 posted
10 MAR by
jedmar
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That was also my thought. The milliner 'Madame Yorke' is mentioned several times in the 1890s, but there is no dressmaker Testout in London, at least in 1891.
Moreau-Robert's rose 'Madame Yorke' predates the mentions of the milliner in London. It is possibly named after the character Lady Augusta Yorke ("Madame Yorke" for the French) in Mrs. Henry Wood's novel "The Channings" (1861).
There is also an 1850 water-colour of a Madame Yorke, by paintress Mira Vigneron (1817-1884).
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#4 of 7 posted
10 MAR by
HubertG
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I found this from 1945 in 'The Flower Grower' Vol. 32, Issue 11 (November), page 552 but it is reproduced from the Royal Horticultural Society journal of March 1945:
"Mme. Caroline Testout was so called by a fashionable London dressmaker of that name who purchased the variety as part of a publicity campaign. The rose was distributed in 1890 by that great French raiser, Joseph Pernet-Ducher, of Venissieux, nr. Lyon, who died in 1928. As a rule, raisers of new plants are quite naturally inclined to think more of their productions than other people, but sometimes they err in the opposite direction. This was a case in point, for at the time Pernet-Ducher considered the pink seedling which Mme. Testout selected was no more than mediocre, but the dressmaker thought otherwise and, much to the raiser’s surprise, she turned out to be right. Incidentally, Mme. Caroline Testout was the seed-parent of Frau Karl Druschki. The well-known yellow rose Julien Potin was named in honor of M. Julien Potin, the proprietor of a chain of grocery stores. This was another case in which Pernet-Ducher was mistaken, for he had decided to discard the seedling when a committee of Potin’s employees asked to be allowed to purchase it as a gift to their employer.— Reprinted from the Journal of the Royal Horticultural Society, March 1945"
There are sporadic newspaper articles from the 1960s and 70s saying more or less the same thing - that she had "bought the rights" to the rose and named it after herself. However, 1945 is a timeframe presumably in someone's living memory of a famous dressmaker, if she was one. It still seems strange that if she was so advanced in promoting her business by using novel techniques like this rose why she couldn't have advertised on paper. Perhaps she did and nothing survived of it?
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#5 of 7 posted
10 MAR by
jedmar
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The earliest dressmaker/couturière story is in "House & Garden" of 1929. J. H. Nicolas in "Better Homes and Gardens" in 1936 expounded on this, saying that it was told to him personally by Pernet-Ducher (who had died in 1928). A nice story probably for marketing purposes! Often repeated in publications in English, but not in France.
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#6 of 7 posted
10 MAR by
HubertG
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There's probably no reason to doubt Nicolas that Pernet-Ducher told him this story. I just wonder if Caroline Testout herself when buying the rose might have 'embellished' her credentials a bit to Pernet-Ducher, who might have had little clue who she was.
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What's worrisome about it is that this interesting detail about one of the era's best-known roses waited nearly forty years to be made public, that P-D evidently told no one else about it (or at least no one else saw fit to share this interesting detail about one of the era's best-known roses), that one of the principals in the anecdote (P-D) was dead by the time it went public, that no evidence has come to light about Testout's existence as a dressmaker, that if it was done for publicity purposes for a dressmaking concern it seems to have failed spectacularly to accomplish its goal, and that it does not account for the much more timely assertion that had been made that the rose was named for a flower-loving lady of Grenoble (though I suppose a person could be both a dressmaker and a flower-loving lady of Grenoble). As for the rose being named for our lady of Grenoble, it's hard to conceive how someone could benefit from telling a lie to that effect; but it's worth at least noting that, that fact having been stated in print, no one at the time appears to have contradicted it--including P-D, who was alive at the time.
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Why are the descriptive references which we would normally expect to be on the "References" page instead lengthily on the "Description" page?
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If, as 'tis said, this rose is named after Lady Mary Wentworth-Fitzwilliam (January 9, 1845–July 1, 1921), that lady had married Hugh Le Despenser Boscawen on May 23, 1872, and was still married to that gentleman at the time of the introduction of the rose (and indeed continued so to his death in 1908), and so was, at the time the rose was introduced, Lady Mary Boscawen. It seems strange to be dubbing the rose after her pre-married name of a decade and more earlier; but perhaps those more familiar with the traditions and ways of the British aristocracy than I could favor us with an opinion.
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#1 of 13 posted
6 MAR by
jedmar
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Is it possible that the seedling was named 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' on or prior to her marriage in 1872, but officially launched only 10 years later?
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#2 of 13 posted
6 MAR by
Lee H.
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I do not find a title associated with Mr. Boscawen, so he may have been a commoner. It may have been a social courtesy to continue calling her by her noble title, although she may no longer have been legally entitled to it.
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Boscawen was the son (third child, second son) of a Viscount, which made him an "Honourable" rather than a "Lord," so yes you could be right that the lady in question could revert name-wise to her original higher noble title; I don't know what the practice is in aristocratic circles.
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#4 of 13 posted
7 MAR by
HubertG
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I think it's more likely that the Lady Mary Fitzwilliam in question is Lady Mary Butler, born Mary Grace Louisa Butler, daughter to John Butler, 2nd Marquess of Ormonde and his wife Frances. She was born in Kilkenny, Ireland in 1846 and died in Malton, Yorkshire in 1929. She married on 11 July 1877 the Hon. Henry Fitzwilliam, the brother of the lady discussed in the prior posts, who was the second son to the 6th Earl Fitzwilliam, and also an M.P.
Unless I'm mistaken, as the daughter of a marquess who married a lesser son of an earl she was entitled to retain her first name in her courtesy title after her marriage, so she was styled Lady Mary Fitzwilliam rather than Lady Henry Fitzwilliam, although I admit I'm a little confused regarding this courtesy usage since he was also an M.P.
There's a photo of a Lady Mary Fitzwilliam facing page 152 in the memoirs 'Looking Back' by Sir Seymour Fortescue. Taken onboard the HMS Surprise, included in the photo is the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh, and it must date from 1886-87, the years that Fortescue was First-Lieutenant of the 'Surprise'. Although I can't be certain that this is the Lady Mary the rose was named for, the fact that the family had close royal social connections makes it likely in my opinion - Lady Mary's mother the 2nd Marchioness of Ormonde was lady-in-waiting to Queen Adelaide from 1844 to 1849, and Queen Adelaide was the godmother to Lady Mary's brother James (who became the 3rd Marquess of Ormonde), and Lady Mary Butler herself was one of the bridesmaids at Princess Louise's wedding in 1871.
I note that the rose 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam', although released in 1882, was already exhibited in 1880 under that name which is only 3 years after Lady Mary Butler's marriage. I'm not sure if there is any personal connection to Bennett but the timing at least is fitting.
There may still be some other Lady Mary Fitzwilliam possibility out there but this is the most likely candidate, in my opinion.
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Excellent research! Thanks so much.
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#6 of 13 posted
8 MAR by
Lee H.
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I note that the American Rose Annual of 1952 seems to largely agree with HubertG, but I suspect a mistake with the hybridizer mentioned.
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#7 of 13 posted
9 MAR by
HubertG
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Thank you, odinthor, you're welcome.
I hadn't seen that excerpt from the American Rose Annual, Lee H., so thanks for posting it as it pretty much confirms what I'd suggested.
After I had posted above, I looked at other roses from Bennett and realised that there are a number named for members of that same extended family.
'Viscountess Falmouth' introduced in 1879 was named for Mary, the 6th Viscountess Falmouth (1822-1891) who had married Evelyn Boscawen (1819-1889), who succeeded to the title in 1852. Their son was the Hon. Hugh le Despencer, the one discussed in the first post who had married in 1872 the Lady Mary Fitzwilliam (not the rose LMF), daughter of the 6th Earl Fitzwilliam.
Another Bennett rose, this one released posthumously, was 'Lady Henry Grosvenor'. The timing of its naming, and release about 1892 after Bennett's death in 1890 meant that it had to be named for the first wife of Lord Henry George Grosvenor, born Dora Mina Erskine-Wemyss in 1856 and who died in Dec 1894 two days after giving birth to their third child.
That Henry Grosvenor was the 3rd son of Hugh Grosvenor, 1st Duke of Westminster (1825-1899) and his first wife Constance, née Leveson Gower, (1834-1880), and so it was his mother for whom Bennett's 1879 'Duchess of Westminster' was named. The 1st Duke of Westminster remarried in 1882.
And of course the Westminsters' daughter Lady Elizabeth Harriet Grosvenor (1856-1928) married James Butler, the 3rd Marquess of Ormonde who was the brother of our Lady Mary Fitzwilliam for whom the rose was named.
I hope that's clear :-). There may still be other family relationships with other Bennett roses that I haven't seen yet: I'm not sure.
Anyway, it appears that the family was clearly on pretty good terms with Bennett to accept his offerings, and all of it does confirm to me that Lady Mary Fitzwilliam née Butler (1846-1929) is the correct candidate for the 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' rose.
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#8 of 13 posted
9 MAR by
jedmar
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Reference added, thank you! The mention of Henry Shepard as breeder is strange. Doesn't ring a bell, at all. This text was repeated in "The Rose Annual" of 1956, page 48. If someone has this volume, could you please check if it is Shepard who is mentioned, or corrected to Bennett?
Edit: Bennett's nursery was in Shepperton.
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Rose annual 1956: p. 48 says that Lady Mary was born in England in 1846, grand-daughter of the Duke of Ormonde, and died in 1929."Royal permission and special warrant was received in 1882 by Henry Shepard, hybridizer of this rose, to name it after this great English lady."
Further down the page it says that Mme Caroline Testout was a French seamstress with an establishment in London.
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#10 of 13 posted
9 MAR by
jedmar
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Curious! One would have thought that the British would have mentioned the correct Breeder.
There is no evidence that Mme Caroline Testout was a couturière. I have reposted an exchange on the subject which was under a general heading.
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#11 of 13 posted
9 MAR by
odinthor
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I read in The Old Rose Advisor that 'Mme. Caroline Testout' was "Dedicated to a lady of Grenoble, a flower fancier.” [JR34/14]
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#12 of 13 posted
9 MAR by
jedmar
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See my Q&A note to Mme Caroline Testout on this subject
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I recalled that post, which is why I added the Testout comment. "Seamstress" is a bit unflattering, too.
There is another questionable statement: he states that Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria was originally Duchess of Olga, which Wikipedia doesn't seem aware of...
I think the article shows that the writer wasn't checking all his facts. It is a lengthy article, talking about the many descendants of 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam', and where the colouring of each group came from.
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There is a black and white engraving of 'Mme. Julie Wiedemann' in vol. 2 of Singer's 1885 Dictionnaire at p. 48, which I do not have at hand to scan for you (and Google Books didn't unfold it and scan it either). Does anyone else have it at hand to scan and upload here?
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