HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Initial post
29 MAR 06 by
Unregistered Guest
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I read the box about the confusion with 'Barcelona,' but it confused me. Is Kim Rupert saying that only plants from Ashdown and Sequoia are 'Francis Dubreuil' and all other nurseries have 'Barcelona'?
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No. I was documenting the provenance of the two roses and who had what, and from where. I'd watched the debate on another rose site as to who had the "real Irene Watts". Similar debate was brewing over Francis Debreuil and Barcelona. My point was, in both cases, there is no difference between the two roses. As to whether the correct identification is Barcelona or Francis Debreuil, I can't say with absolute certainty. But, at least in the cases of the nurseries listed (and very likely all others), both roses are the same rose.
If I had to make the decision based upon who's had what the longest, I'd decide the roses are all Barcelona. The plant I've been familiar with the longest is the Barcelona which was an old, established plant at The Huntington, when I first encountered it 23 years ago, and began propagating from it. Francis Debreuil, or what we have here as Francis, is an identification made by Peter Beales, much more recently than the accepted, originally commercially available Barcelona which has been here for decades. The strength of the identification is stronger and continuous back to a point of origin.
Early Hybrid Teas either tended to lean toward the Hybrid Perpetual line, or the Tea type. Barcelona's plant type is more like a Tea than an HP. Its flowers are more in the coloring of HTs. It's the scent which is the kicker for me. Tea roses shouldn't express the Damask scent, unless they have a healthy dose of HP in them. That fragrance came from the European Old Garden Roses, through the Hybrid Perpetual. Hybrid Teas originated as crosses of Tea roses and Hybrid Perpetuals. Francis Debreuil smells like a European OGR, exactly the same fragrance as our Barcelona. Mr. Debreuil may well have created a Hybrid Tea, but registered it as a Tea due to its growth type. The two roses we have are the same rose. My pick would be, what we have is Barcelona. It's been known continually in trade in this country (including being available from Vintage Gardens) as that identity far longer than the other name.
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#2 of 13 posted
11 OCT 06 by
Unregistered Guest
Mr. Rupert, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you had replied. Thank you for clearing things up for me. Let me see if I have it now. I believe you're saying that you think the "Francis Dubreuil" that was imported from Peter Beales was probably 'Barcelona' misidentified as FD. I think your identification by scent is really inspired and interesting--that if FD was a tea it shouldn't smell like an old rose. Does this mean that no true teas have or should have any old European roses in their backgrounds? I find all this fascinating and it brings up more questions: If all plants identified as FD really 'Barcelona', then why did Peter Beales believe he had FD? What happened to the real 'Francis Dubreuil' in the first place? Has it been completely lost? Is anyone in the world working on identifying/classifying these old roses through DNA research? Thank you for your time and help. |
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Mr. Rupert, I replied earlier to this, but it looks like my reply is hung up in some kind of administrative review. Thank you for clearing up my confusion. I think I understand what you are saying now. You believe that the "Francis Dubreuil" that was imported from Peter Beales was really 'Barcelona'? I think your i.d. by scent makes a lot of sense. It still brings up a lot of questions for me, though. For instance, what happened to the real FD? Do you believe that it has been totally lost? If so, why did Peter Beales think that he still had it? Was it a marketing decision? I can see how a rose that looks like this one would sell better as a "rare" dark red tea rather than as a puny hybrid tea that doesn't look very much like a hybrid tea. Also, are you aware of any genetic studies or research going on that would clear up all the confusion about roses i.d.'s and families? I know it isn't exactly a pressing problem, but it would be interesting and fascinating to find it all out. If only I were a Biology grad student specializing in Botany... Thank you for your time, G. Lavergne |
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Hi, I don't believe Mr. Beales had any other motive for his identifications than the roses in question honestly resembled those he mistook them for. He may now have been familiar with Barcelona, though he offered and continues to offer Pink Gruss an Aachen. It is conceivable he identified Irene Watts properly, as his catalog does state he has the "real" one, and that it was confused upon shipment to Mike Lowe. Barcelona isn't actually a "weak" Hybrid Tea. In my climate, it develops into a plant which is very much in keeping with what was to be expected of many dark red HTs of the early 1930s. Own root, it is weak until it develops for several years. It does like warm, dry weather, as do most all other intensely fragrant, very dark red roses. As for what happened to the original Francis Dubreiul, who can say? There are many examples of mistaken identities in rosedom, such as Colonial White/Sombreuil; Jacques Cartier/Marquessa Bochella, etc. Probably most of them were accidental, and a few can actually be traced back to some disaster creating the confusion. It may still exist in some old garden, or it may be lost. here, is it really "bad" for the weaker or "inferior" rose to be lost? I'm unaware of any work being done to straighten out these confusions. The information would be interesting, though expensive. Unfortunately, DNA wouldn't tell us which was which rose initially, only whether two which closely resemble each other are the same rose or not. Kim |
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Mr Rupert,
You have recommended several great roses to me at the Huntington sales, thanks.
I bought Barcelona from Sequoia 3 years ago and I've owned FD for over a decade, purcahsed from Limberlost Roses in Van Nuys. The bushes do look alike but Barcelona seems be more cherry red and FD is Oklahoma dark. ??? Am I imagining the difference???
Also , do you know another name for the HP, Mrs Charmin (sp?) Crawford? It's a huge bush with huge leaves and not too thorny- heavy bloomer with constant repeat and fragrant (a Fragrant Memory scent), long stemmed with med pink flowers. It seems to be the best performing HP in LA., often seen growing unattended at old Victorian houses or alleys in the inner-city?
I can't find it listed anywhere.
thanks again!
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Some people seem to think that Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford is the same rose as "Grandmother's Hat," a "found" rose, for what it's worth.
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"Mr Rupert,
You have recommended several great roses to me at the Huntington sales, thanks."
You're welcome! I'm glad my suggestions pleased you. Those sales were some of the greatest rose fun I've ever experienced.
"I bought Barcelona from Sequoia 3 years ago and I've owned FD for over a decade, purcahsed from Limberlost Roses in Van Nuys. The bushes do look alike but Barcelona seems be more cherry red and FD is Oklahoma dark. ??? Am I imagining the difference???"
Who am I to say you are? If they're planted side by side and you are convinced you see a difference, that's your call. I grew them side by side and took great pains to maintain them separately to make sure I didn't confuse them. I didn't see any difference.
"Also , do you know another name for the HP, Mrs Charmin (sp?) Crawford? It's a huge bush with huge leaves and not too thorny- heavy bloomer with constant repeat and fragrant (a Fragrant Memory scent), long stemmed with med pink flowers. It seems to be the best performing HP in LA., often seen growing unattended at old Victorian houses or alleys in the inner-city?
I can't find it listed anywhere.
thanks again! "
I believe you are refering to Mrs. R. G. Sharman-Crawford. Another confusion! For many years, Grandmother's Hat/Barbara Worl has been available locally (Limberlost) and by mail order/Net. Bob Edberg found a plate in an old rose book which convinced him Mrs. R.G. was the correct identification of Grandmother's Hat. There is great speculation it is not.
Grandmother's Hat is a spectacular rose! Barbara Worl did the rose world a great service by finding this rose and distributing it. It is one of the great landscape roses around. I have it in my collection, have had it for nearly 25 years. I have it in two clients' gardens in both the original pink variation and the lighter sport, or reversion as one California nurseryman believes, Larry Daniels. Larry was this nurseryman's cousin who died some years ago. I've seen Grandmother's Hat (so called because Barbara felt the flower looks just like the silk flower a little old lady wears on her straw hat) in nearly white, blush pink, the "standard" lilac pink, and even striped lighter pink on the darker ground. All are sports of the same rose.
Sequoia had it before they closed. There's an enormous one planted in the ground toward the back of the property which will be bull dozed with everything else, unfortunately. It was in splendid bloom when I was there last week. Ashdown has it under both names, though they are the same rose. Bob Edberg (Limberlost) is responsible for that. Vintage may well have it. You'll probably find it from other sources here on Help Me Find if you look under Grandmother's Hat instead of Mrs. R. G. Sharman-Crawford. Quite a few rose nuts here in SoCal grow multiple plants of it because it is SO good in so many different climates. Hope this helped. Kim
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No, I am saying there is NO difference between the rose imported from Beales in England as Francis Dubreuil and the one grown here for many decades as Barcelona, from ANY source in the US. Just as there is NO difference between the Irene Watts imported from Beales in England and the Pink Gruss an Aachen grown in the US for many decades. Just as there is NO difference between the rose identified in person by Dr. Basye as 65-626, "Commander Gillette" and the one Dr. Basye identified and sent to The Huntington Library as 77-361, which Paul Zimmerman and I have named, "Basye's Legacy". Which is of the identifications is accurate I can't say. I CAN say there was NO mix up of the roses imported from Beales as Francis D. and the ones existing here as Barcelona as I propagated it from Limberlost Roses (Bob Edberg) who imported it from Beales and donated it to The Huntington. Bob gave it to me to give to Clair Martin, who planted it in the China and Tea bed there. The Barcelona existed in the main garden where it had been for MANY years.
Mike Lowe imported the Irene Watts from Beales and he gave it directly to me to give to The Huntington, where I rooted it and Clair planted it in the China and Tea bed. It appeared SO similar to the Pink Gruss an Aachen, I cut material from both and showed it to David Ruston, Clair Martin and all the other "experts" at the Rose Festival which was going on that weekend there. No one could tell any difference between the two. NO difference. That mess has since been sorted out that they are identical, just as the determination that Barcelona and Francis Dubreuil are identical.
In both cases, no US nursery listed Irene Watts nor Francis Dubreiul prior to them passing through Beales into this country and being passed around. Unless someone else has since imported them from another source, I'd venture the guess that they are all the same rose from the same original source.
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#9 of 13 posted
3 JUN 08 by
 jedmar
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There is a very good chance that the real 'Francis Dubreuil' exists in Europe. It seems to have been in commerce at least until World War I and known as one of the most beautiful Teas. Sangerhausen had in 1936 both 'Francis Dubreuil' and 'Barcelona', as they have today. 'Barcelona' is described as large and dark red, while 'Francis Dubreuil' is medium size and dark purple-red. On the other hand, as 'Barcelona' seems to have disappeared from commerce in Europe, it is not certain that all 'Francis Dubreuil' in the market are the real thing.
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#8 of 13 posted
3 JUN 08 by
Unregistered Guest
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Thanks, I guess it's been my imagination but the "Barcelona" always looked lighter red.
Next question please :
My K of K, also purchased as Limberlost (like my "FD"), is like a dark red HP Climber that is more double and darker than the K of K pictures/description in HMF. There is one picture that looks more like mine but, the photographer mentioned that it's not really K of K? What's up on this one, Senor Rose?
PS Do you still sell rose cuttings at the Huntington and when?
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"Thanks, I guess it's been my imagination but the "Barcelona" always looked lighter red."
It may well, I can't comment on what you see. I just haven't seen it here.
"Next question please :
My K of K, also purchased as Limberlost (like my "FD"), is like a dark red HP Climber that is more double and darker than the K of K pictures/description in HMF. There is one picture that looks more like mine but, the photographer mentioned that it's not really K of K? What's up on this one, Senor Rose?"
Lyn, who does much wonderful work on this site, sent me the link for the discussion about K of K and I've added my two cents worth there. Here's the link. Just scroll down to the post and you'll see what I have to add. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/qcs.php?tab=4&qn=3&qc=0
"PS Do you still sell rose cuttings at the Huntington and when?"
No, I was a rose garden volunteer there for many years and loved every minute of it. Life changes, as do the desires of the Institution. We had a very active, very enjoyable Volunteer Group there for many years, but the Library perfers Docents these days. They're much more controllable than Volunteers, and I just don't have time to schlep out there any more. There are too many demands upon my time, not to mention the gas expense of making a seventy mile round trip for fun these days. Thanks for remembering me and asking. I DO miss it! Kim
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Feel like I missed out on a great story, and have just been let in on a secret everyone! Kim, is the lighter sport, Larry Daniels stable ?
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Hi Andrew, stable? Well, the one plant I get to fondle isn't. It regularly throws flowers of near white, blush pink (never fading as light as the lighter flowers on the plant) and the occasional flower of Grandmother's Hat. I suppose there may be some which are more stable, but not the one I have in a client's garden. It's quite similar to the problem with Careless Love, which adores sporting/reverting to the more stable variation, Mrs. Charless Bell. Both are great roses, but if you want the cerise and silver, light pink won't do.
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18" tall according to Sequoia Nursery
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I saw it 8' high at Sequoia. No I'm not kidding.
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Robert,
I thought I remembered seeing that plant. Thank you for confirming that I was remembering the right rose.
Smiles,
Lyn
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You remember correctly Lyn. The only thing miniature about 'Chickadee' is the blossom.
Mr. Moore was always fond of this rose and to tell the truth I've never understood why. It's pleasant enough. I was just never overly impressed.
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HelpMeFind lists a climbing sport of the original bush form. Maybe that is the source of the confusion?
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No, I've seen the climbing sport as well. The 8' plant I observed was the original seedling. Keep in mind that roses grow exceptionally well in Visalia, CA.
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