HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Patricia Routley 
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1 JUL 13 by
goncmg
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Immeasurably important rose considering not only that it begat Queen Elizabeth lines (and appears in many 60's-70's miniatures along with R. Wichuriana), but also the clear vermillion color, very unique for 1945. Foliage is lovely: bright and glossy, the plant often produces huge trusses of bloom and the scent is notable for me, rather spicey. Downside is the addiction to blackspot. Tantau was known for not disclosing a lot of his breeding parentages and I have always wondered if the cross that resulted in Floradora was not more complex, Baby Chateau x R. Roxburghii SEEDLING or something. Seems very odd that with that father as listed the plant would look so modern, everything about it, and that there wouldn't have been some non-recurrent grandchildren (Queen E's generation).....??? Does anyone have any opinions on this or any information?
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I too have been a bit interested in 'Floradora' but it has never come my way. I've spent an hour or so gathering reference page numbers for both 'Floradora' and 'Floradora Cl.' in case I ever get the impetus or need to look closer at the rose.
In the 1950 'Australian Rose Annual', C. H. Isaac, Victoria. said the parentage of 'Floradora' was 'Baby Chateau) (Hyb Poly) x Rosa Multibracteata (Species). So far it was the only mention of a parentage I've seen, but my search has only been a perfunctory one.
Patricia
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If I had to guess, I would hypothesize that the Rosa roxbughii pollen was not truly accepted, and that it prompted the female parts of 'Baby Chateau' to double itself into fertile seed. I have used a relative of R. roxburghii on 'Belle Epoque', which was pollinated between rains, removed of any male parts prior to pollen release, and then covered. The likelihood of impurity was really low, and the likelihood of an impure seed germinating was even lower. The only surviving seedling came out as a near clone of 'Belle Epoque', except strong in color, completely seed sterile, and extremely thin. It was a very weird occurrence. Vigor was oddly strong.
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#3 of 11 posted
27 OCT 15 by
goncmg
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Really interesting, Michael! Looking at Floradora I think you may have nailed it!
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#4 of 11 posted
1 FEB 18 by
CybeRose
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Michael,
Another possibility is that Floradora and its siblings are partial hybrids. Pollination occurs in the usual way, but the paternal chromosomes are mostly eliminated. This phenomenon has been observed in other genera, such as Helianthus, Solanum, etc.
Wulff (1954) wrote: "There is another remarkable fact to note. Without going into details I may state here that the three roses 'Floradora', 'Käthe Duvigneau', and 'Cinnabar', as well as the hybrid 46534, did not show any traces of the male parent Rosa Roxburghii in their morphology. The first three roses are true hybrid polyanthas, the latter is a true hybrid tea, indicating thus that the genes which are responsible for the respective characters of growth habit and for many characters of shape and size of flowers, fruits, leaves and spines are dominant to the allelic genes of R. Roxburghii. Only anatomical studies revealed a certain similarity and relationship to the latter species."
It would have been helpful if he had given us more information about those anatomical studies.
Karl
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Hi, Karl,
Interesting. You're right. That just begs for more information, with questions to follow.
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#6 of 11 posted
3 FEB 18 by
CybeRose
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Michael,
I have a list of possible examples of partial hybridization ... some old, some new ... that are suggestive at least.
If you are interested in the subject.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/ExceptionalCrosses.html
Karl
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Thank you!!!
I bookmarked them for nighttime hours.
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link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s001220100746
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#9 of 11 posted
3 SEP 21 by
Plazbo
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I agree with the more info about those anatomical studies would have been nice. I've not found the thorns to be particularly recessive with my Baby Faurax x R. Roxburghii Normalis seedlings. Granted they are still quite young and may change but they look more rox hybrid (growth shape) than Baby Faurax. Will be interesting to see what happens with the flowering and hips when they mature enough. Flakey bark (not just browning/woody like in this picture attached) seems to be appearing on some of them around the base where they are thickest (all still very thin wood, small plants) but I may be jumping the gun on that.
I can't put too much focus on the leaflets, while BF typically has 5-7 and the seedlings 9-11, 9 isn't out of the typical realm for multiflora....may increase with maturity, will find out sooner or later.
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#10 of 11 posted
today by
HubertG
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I found the following early reference giving the multibracteata pedigree in the 'American Nurseryman' of March 1, 1943, page 35.
"Rose Registrations. [...] Floradora. Hybrid polyantha. A seedling, cross of Baby Chateau x multibracteata, originated by Mathias Tantau, Ueterson, Germany, and to be introduced by the Conard-Pyle Co. in 1943. Plant described as bushy, upright, with abundant large, leathery foliage, vigorous and hardy. Cupped blooms two and one-half to two and three-fourths inches across, with fifty to fifty-five petals of red. Slight spicy fragrance. Moderate growth. Blooms singly and several together, continuously."
The American Rose Magazine of Jan-Feb 1943 on page 35 records that it won a Certificate of Merit in the A.R.S. Test Garden Awards for 1942, with no mention of pedigree other than its classification as a Hybrid Polyantha.
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#11 of 11 posted
today by
jedmar
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Reference and award added, thank you!
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To Luke - Canberra1913!
Dear Luke,
May we all have grandsons of your calibre.
I think I have Helen Traubel’, but there is a tiny doubt in my mind. I planted an own root plant in an area which later became too shaded and it has never done well. In 2024 I moved it to a pot and it is doing better now, but still a small plant. It doesn’t seem to have a weak neck.
I think my plant can donate one cutting though if you want to try it. I can wrap it in only just damp newspaper and if it callouses up, I can post it later.
But you should try to get it from others too to play it safe. (The 1986 reference says it may be hard to propagate - but I have done it once). Johno, Cheryl Moore, and Yvonne Foster - can your plants donate any wood?
Luke, I think you should remove your email address from your comment as you might regret the spam that it may attract.
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Dear Patricia,
I am so glad someone has had luck with propagating it! I have gone on two road trips from Canberra to Melbourne to pick up cuttings but unfortunately they didn't take and the mother plant there has since died.
Following that loss, I must've sent over 40 emails out to nurseries with no luck, and so I can't stress how uplifting it was to receive your message.
With all that, I wouldn't want to stress your plant, but if you could spare a cutting, I would be so incredibly grateful. I would be more than happy to post a satchel or cover any costs involved.
My grandmother was one of the first people in Australia to grow the climbing variety of the 'Helen Traubel' and it was her pride and joy - once covering a whole verandah. I know it's only a small gesture but she has done so much for me and so if I could help rekindle any of those memories, I think that would be a huge win in my book.
Please let me know if there's anything I can do and feel free to send me a private message (or any of the other contact methods I previously sent - I have removed them from the message but can resend - thanks for that!)
Kind Regards,
Luke
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#2 of 5 posted
3 days ago by
HubertG
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Luke, I just wanted to add that Ross Roses in South Australia still has 'Helen Traubel' on their 'In Collection' list. This normally means that plants aren't currently available but can be grafted on special request. Nevertheless I'd still contact them to see if they have any loose specimens they might be able to send this winter, but if not, you can then put a special order in for next year, just in case cuttings don't work out.
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Hi Hubert! Thank you so much for your recommendation! I've been in touch with Andrew at Ross Roses and he mentioned that he might have something in 2026. However, with Gran being 93 and not feeling her best, time really is of the essence and I really do want to get her a bloom as soon as possible. It really is so lovely to have the insight and help from so many passionate gardeners on this site, I really should've started here when I started searching two years ago!
Thank you so much again,
Luke
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#4 of 5 posted
2 days ago by
HubertG
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Luke, you're very welcome, and I understand your urgency. I really hope you get one soon.
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Confirm with Andrew whether he has the bush or the climber.
And I’ve sent you a private message on where you may be able to get some blooms next spring.
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Hello!
I hope this finds you well!
I was just wondering whether I could get in contact with you regarding your Helen Traubel rose? I am sorry to write it in comments but I have tried every rose nursery on the eastern seaboard and I am a little desperate to grow this variety for my grandmother (who is 93). Her 50 odd year old 'Helen Traubel' rose was recently mulched and I would love to get one for her to grow in her new assisted living situation.
If you would be amenable to cuttings or have any insight as to where I could pick one up *edited to remove the number, thank you for the advice!!
Thank you so much in advance,
Kind Regards,
Luke
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I will reply in the ‘Helen Traubel’ comments page,
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Initial post
11 days ago by
HubertG
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I wonder whether this might be the original 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam'. The foliage, flowers and plentiful hips seem to be a match. Or maybe one of her closer descendants?
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#1 of 4 posted
11 days ago by
Lee H.
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That’s an exciting proposition. LMF is such an important rose, and deserves a better fate than extinction. If I had access to both, I’d want to cross her with ‘Dr. Grill’, and see if something approximating ‘Antoine Rivoire’ would result. Because science, you know? :-)
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Contributions from members on the average height of “Bishop’s Lodge Mary Mathews” might help.
The original ‘Lady Mary Fitzwilliam’ was low.
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From memory, the plant at Renmark was less than 1.2m high.
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#4 of 4 posted
9 days ago by
HubertG
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Thanks, Margaret. The photo by Ozoldroser of the bush at 'Budgewah', Hay certainly looks wider than it is high.
I'm only going by the photos here, but I'm really struck at how closely the flower form and petals match the photos of LMF and her sports. I can see the same shallowly concave/shell-shaped petals with scrolled edges and central notches at the petal tips, and how the outer ones reflex to form an angular silhouette. Even the buds are somewhat pointed but with scrolled edges. The rounded leaflets and their spacing also seems to be a perfect match to the Jekyll/Mawley photo. A search online will show a couple of bloom photos on facebook which are almost identical matches to that same photo.
After my initial thought that this looks like LMF was one doubting its likeliness to have been growing at Hay at the time of Bishop Anderson (1896-1925) or, if it was there, to have survived. However a search of the local Hay newspaper The Riverine Grazier gives two mentions of 'Lady Mary Fitzwilliam' winning in the cut flower section at the annual Hay Spring Show - one in 1897 and one in 1899, both as specimens in a group of six different varieties and shown by different exhibitors. The 1899 mention is interesting because it immediately goes on to mention the Bishop of Riverina's display of pelargoniums, some of his own breeding. So it seems certain that Bishop Anderson would have seen LMF displayed at the Hay Show. I don't know if he dabbled in breeding roses as well as pelargoniums but if he did it's intriguing to speculate that he might also have grown LMF for its reputation as being a good parent.
Anyway, I think it definitely needs observation so if anyone here grows it more photos would be much appreciated. Of course I could be barking up the wrong tree but I just can't unsee what I've now seen. It would be awesome if LMF didn't go extinct.
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