-
-
|
This rose is very much paler than the 'Débutante' grown in the U.K.
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.319846
.
|
REPLY
|
|
Yes, you are correct that many of the Walsh roses in Europe and the UK are incorrectly labeled. This particular rose was bought directly from Mr. Walsh in the 1910s and the family has photos of the three girls (now deceased) with the roses from Walsh. The best place to see original Walsh roses is in Woods Hole, MA and Elizabeth Park in Hartford, CT. Dan Russo is the curator of rambler roses at Elizabeth Park and has been studying the Walsh roses for decades. He identified this rose.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thank you Palustris that's interesting, but all the old references, pre. 1911 describe it as soft pink or rose pink.
|
REPLY
|
|
Palustris' buds are pale pink, and the bush photos are more white. Perhaps this rose fades more than the 1998-195 and 1994-229 references indicate. The advice about the glandular bristles is valuable. The Wichs are a little unstable in their colouring Andrew. Take a look at Margaret's photos of 'Dorothy Dennison'. One of these days I would love to add more references to the Wichs and there is quite a bit in the early English Annuals. Perhaps next winter.
|
REPLY
|
|
I do get the odd flower very late in the season that is a pale colour but this year has been unusually hot and dry and the rose being grown in the U.K. is a completely different colour to the U.S. one.
|
REPLY
|
|
I have added a few more references. Excellent photos in the 1991 reference but I am unable to share them.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thanks Patricia, I can't find a single reference to 'Débutante' having such pale almost white flowers, even the HMF profile page is wrong. If this is so what is the rose we are all incorrectly growing as 'Débutante'?
|
REPLY
|
|
Did you ever happen to notice that Dorothy Perkins has 6 named sports?
I think these old ramblers are famous (or infamous) for their color shifts, and I would not be surprised if 'Debutante' is sometimes a lighter pink, and sometimes a darker color. Different growing conditions may play a role with color saturation, as well.
Virginia
|
REPLY
|
|
I have uploaded the description of 'Debutante' from Walsh's Handbook of Roses. I think his description of "soft pink" seems accurate to the rose under discussion. Walsh's reference to 'Crimson Rambler' is also a hint as to 'Debutante's' heritage since 'Crimson Rambler' is easy to identify by its profusion of bristles on the pedicels.
|
REPLY
|
|
"I would not be surprised if 'Debutante' is sometimes a lighter pink, and sometimes a darker color."
Virginia, If you look at my photos taken in different years you will see exactly that: darker and lighter pink flowers. I might add that the photo from Walsh's 1903 catalog shows the rose to appear almost white.
|
REPLY
|
|
Palustrus, I have typed up that Walsh's Handbook of Roses reference and added it, presuming it was from the 1903 edition. If you have a page number that would be good.
|
REPLY
|
|
Patricia, I don't own the Walsh Handbook of Roses. The Woods Hole Historical Museum has a half dozen of the handbooks and they have allowed me to photograph them. The quote is from page 11 of two different years, but there is no date on the cover.
|
REPLY
|
|
..... If this is so what is the rose we are all incorrectly growing as 'Débutante'?
Andrew, heavens only knows. But in your research I would consider:
1897 Universal Favorite (R. Wich x Paquerette)
1900 Debutante (R. Wich x a HP....or could it have been Turner's Crimson Rambler)
1901 Dorothy Perkins (R. Wich x a HP....or could it have been Turner's Crimson Rambler)
1904 Minnehaha (R, wich x Paul Neyron)
1905 Lady Gay (R, wich x Bardou Job)
1907 Lady Godiva (Dorothy Perkins sport)
1909 Dorothy Dennison (Dorothy Perkins sport)
1909 Christian Curle (Dorothy Perkins sport)
1909 Jean Girin (unknown)
1912 Petit Louis (Dorothy Perkins x unknown)
|
REPLY
|
|
Thanks Patricia lots of food for thought, I can rule out a lot of the varieties by sight and will look up others. It differs also to Palustris' photographs as the receptacle and pedicel are smooth. I have posted pictures of the rose David Austin is selling as 'Débutante'.
edit. Where have the bristles come from? 'Turner's Crimson'? The receptacles on Rosa wichuraiana and 'Baronne Adolphe de Rothschild' are smooth.
|
REPLY
|
|
Because of the similarity of the blooms of 'Excelsa' and 'Dorothy Perkins' to 'Turner's Crimson Rambler, I think so. As does Charles Quest-Ritson (see the 2003 'Dorothy Perkins' reference)
|
REPLY
|
|
The early references mention a second bloom. Do all or any present-day 'Debutante' plants rebloom?
|
REPLY
|
|
As far as I can see my rose is the same as the rose 'Débutante' photographed in Charles Quest-Ritson's book, he gives the parentage as 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' seedling, making it a multiflora hybrid that would account for the bristles. However HMF gives the parentage as a hybrid wichurana, Rosa wichuraiana Crép. synonym × 'Baronne Adolphe de Rothschild'. This might account for the receptacle being smooth in my rose.
What I have noticed in the U.K. with these types of rose is that they don't have a definite main flush, then a break, then another little flush. But after the main flush peters out there are always dribs and drabs of flowers continuing on into the autumn. 'American Pillar', 'Crimson Shower', 'Dorothy Perkins' and 'Débutante' all do this.
|
REPLY
|
|
It can be exasperating unraveling the identity of these small flowered pink ramblers. Here is 'Dorothy Perkins', 'Minnehaha' and 'Lady Gay'. Note 'Lady Gay' has slightly larger flowers.
|
REPLY
|
|
Quest-Ritson's book is a wonderful resource, but he never visited Elizabeth Park which received their Walsh roses directly from Walsh nor did he visit Woods Hole where there are examples of many of these original roses.
Don't forget that Europe has been through two world wars since these roses were introduced and records and roses were confounded during these periods.
This page has photos of some of Walsh's roses and might be useful for identification:
http://www.hawksbill-house.com/capecodheritageroses/walsh_page.htm
|
REPLY
|
|
That's a really interesting picture Palustris, I've never seen 'Minnehaha' or 'Lady Gay in real life. It is very surprising how similar they all are. And the beautiful pictures from Cape Cod Heritage Roses I really enjoyed reading that article (coincidentally Barnstable was named after my closest town, Barnstaple in Devon). The 'Débutante' rose they grow at Woods Hole is also really beautiful but I've never seen it growing in the U.K. or in in any books and it is definitely another rose to the one we grow here as 'Débutante' so Charles and Brigid Quest-Ritson's R.H.S Encyclopaedia of Roses is right in a sense that this is the rose we grow as 'Débutante'. There is a discrepancy however over the parentage, he says 'Turners Crimson Rambler' seedling and HMF say hybrid wichuriana. Peter Beales has a picture in A Passion for Roses the same as my rose, David Austin supplied my rose, it looks like a lot of people have got it wrong!
You make a good point about plants becoming muddled due to war time austerity, especially after World War II almost every garden was in a dire state of neglect with younger staff fighting or doing war work and flower beds and lawns turned over to vegetable growing. However all the references pre 1911 all describe a rose that is pink.
|
REPLY
|
|
.....There is a discrepancy however over the parentage,
There certainly is. I feel it should be changed to (R. Wichuraiana x Turner's Crimson Rambler), but we have the 1900 reference which quotes the, later disputed, pollen parent of 'Baronne Adolph de Rothschild'. I have made a Note to the main page in the meantime.
|
REPLY
|
|
The plant I grow looks to lean much more toward wichuraiana and Palustris' plant to multiflora. 'Débutante' (U.K.) is always noted for being mildrew resistant whilst Perkins and its type are notorious for it, I wouldn't mind betting that the plant at Woods Hole gets it too. 'Débutante' (W.H.) looks typical for all these types of rose whilst 'Débutante' has slightly less flat flowers with a similarity to 'Baronne Adolphe de Rothschild', it has fewer slightly larger flowers. Palustris do you know if the Woods Hole plant is typical of other 'Débutante' grown in the U.S.A? Angel Gardens say they offer it on HMF but in reality it's not available.
|
REPLY
|
|
With respect to the correct 'Debutante' being grown in the USA, all I can say is that Vintage Gardens did sell the correct rose and also the correct 'Lady Gay' and 'Evangeline', some of which came from Dan Russo. Sadly, they are no longer in business. Any current vendor of 'Debutante' will have the correct rose if they purchased their original stock from Vintage Gardens.
Anne Belovitch encouraged me to send several of the Walsh roses I found and Dan Russo identified to Burlington Rose Nursery for propagation and release into commerce again after 100 years, but I don't believe 'Debutante' was one of them. I can send her 'Debutante' this year if she has the time to propagate it.
|
REPLY
|
|
'Universal Favorite' -- my rose does not have a strong smell.
'Debutante' -- mine is not same as the rose grown at Woods Hole.
'Dorothy Perkins' -- the flowers on my rose are larger, fewer in each spray and lighter pink.
'Minnehaha' -- same as 'Dorothy Perkins'.
'Lady gay, -- same as 'Dorothy Perkins'.
'Lady Godiva' -- the right colour but my rose has larger flowers and fewer in each spray.
'Dorothy Dennison' -- none of these 'Dorothy Perkins' sports are right. Perkins' stems are green coloured whilst mine is purplish, thinner, more similar to other synstylae roses, Rosa rubus for example or very similar looking to Rosa arvensis. The pedicels, receptacles and stems, little bracts etc. in the flower clusters are more like 'Alexander Girault' than these.
'Christian Curle' -- my rose is not a 'Dorothy Perkins' sport.
'Jean Girin' -- far too dark, but the stems on the flower sprays and receptacles etc. are by far the closest to my rose than any I have seen so far.
'Petit Louis' -- far too dark, far too big.
|
REPLY
|
|
I applaud your efforts to truly identify each of these roses. I know the disappointment of finding the rose you thought you had is not correctly identified. I know that the dedicated collectors whom I know are extremely careful to fully identify any particular rose before assigning an identity to it. That is critical to perpetuating the legacy of the roses and their hybridizers.
Here is another page to help identify the Walsh roses:
http://www.hawksbill-house.com/capecodheritageroses/walsh.htm
|
REPLY
|
|
To be honest I don't greatly care if the rose is called 'Débutante' or not, but it is being sold in the U.K. as 'Débutante' and maybe other places too and I'd dearly love to know what it actually is. What strikes me most from this conversation thread is that the rose being grown here should be available in The States and vise versa, they are both very good roses.
From the link you sent:
Debutante
(1901) R. Wichuriana X Baroness Rothschild (1868). Double, clear, soft pink blooms in long sprays, sweetbrier fragrance. Considered one of the premier pink ramblers. Very rare.
At first sight fairly similar to 'Dorothy Perkins', but infinitely more beautiful, of better colour and not subject to mildew. Dark green, rounded, neat foliage, similar to R. wichuraiana, and lone dainty sprays of bloom set with pale green bracts. Flowers cupped at first, later reflexing with quilled petals; clear rose-pink fading to blush. A charming rambler for all purposes, and delightful for cutting. Delicate primrose fragrance. Undoubtedly the best pink rambler in its section. -Graham Stuart Thomas
Thomas is definitely describing the 'Débutante' we grow in the U.K. and I would not describe the rose grown at Woods Hole as "clear, soft pink". I don't know quite what they mean as "sweetbrier fragrance", the leaves of Rosa rubiginosa have their well known apple fragrance but the flowers, like Rosa canina, have very little smell. The 'Débutante' I am growing does not smell of apples but the flowers do have a pleasant sweet smell. Thomas disliked perkins and HATED 'American Pillar'. The above description of 'Débutante' from Climbing Roses Old and New is why I grew it in the first place that along with the picture of it growing with 'Bleu Magenta' at Mottisfont Abbey in the R.H.S. Encyclopaedia of Roses, a colour combination that I copied. 'American Pillar' and 'Dorothy Perkins' are still very common in cottage gardens. On the 10km I drive my partner to work which is mostly remote country lanes and one small village we pass at least 12 'American Pillar', almost every garden has that or 'Dorothy Perkins'. They are very easy from cuttings or you can pull off pieces with a few roots attached from the base of an older plant. Thomas' contempt for 'American Pillar' was such he even refused to write a description for it.
|
REPLY
|
|
Several ways to ID the correct 'Dorothy Perkins' are
1. New foliage and growth is "bronze" in color initially; 'Lady Gay' never is.
2. Pedicels are devoid of any bristles; 'Lady Gay' has sparse and minute "bristles."
3. DP frequently sports back and forth with 'White Dorothy'.
|
REPLY
|
|
Would someone from HMF administration be able to move this conversation into the 'Débutante' Member Comments?
|
REPLY
|
|
I am sorry Andrew, it is not possible to move comments, although some people have copied and pasted a whole thread at times.
(Comments in photos are always difficult to find later.)
If you find a conversation diverting to another subject/rose, you need to do something like:
This comment continued in .....rose.
This comment continued from ....rose.
|
REPLY
|
|
Interesting observation you just made in a comment on 'Lady Blanche',
"I might add to the above description that the new canes turn a sort of purple/brown on the side exposed to the sun and are mostly thorn free. The canes remind me of ayrshire roses, not multiflora..."
This is exactly like the rose I am growing as 'Débutante'. I edited the comments on the pictures I posted to, "The rose grown as 'Débutante' in the U.K."
|
REPLY
|
|
This gets curiouser and curiouser!
|
REPLY
|
|
The growth is similar to Rosa arvensis, parent to the Ayrshire roses because it is in the synstylae group. I think the rose I am growing and 'Lady Blanche' could be closer to Rosa wichuraiana another synstylae member,
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.184285 your 'Débutante' and their ilk because they are closer to Rosa multiflora. That would explain their bristliness and 'Lady Blanche' and my rose's smooth pedicels and receptacles.
|
REPLY
|
|
I will respond further in 'Dorothy Perkins'
|
REPLY
|
|
Not intending to be argumentative, but with photographs from that era, even dark roses can show up as light-colored sometimes; I wouldn't read too much into that.
Virginia
|
REPLY
|
|
I will continue corresponding about this rose in the member comments section.
|
REPLY
|
|
